Acharya Tulsi
Question: How did the idea come to your mind to make Choubisi (Tirthankara Stavana) by Jay acharya universally known a century after it was written?
Answer: Choubisi has been fairly known among the Terapanthi people. In my own days, I have been a witness to it being recited feelingly by common people. Its spontaneous and easy style of writing, its rich devotional content, the pleasing (lyrics), the elegance of nicely arranged words, well-formulated argument, etc. highly impressed me. Every time I sing it, I feel overwhelmed at heart. When I sing the songs from Choubisi during my discourses, my listeners are thoroughly absorbed. I have felt that a serious study of Choubisi can make a large number of people well informed. That is why I thought of making Choubisi known to the public at large. The centenary celebration was just a convenient occasion. That resulted in concentrating attention on it.
Question: The aim of singing of eulogies of the Tirthankaras is to lead the individual to the state of becoming dispassionate. But in this context, looking at the eulogical compositions, it seems that his followers have given more importance to divine glory, miracles and external affections than to the need for being dispassionate. Jayacharya's Choubisi too has not been an exception to this. What is your view about it?
Answer: The dispassionate state is an ideal of Jainism. Dispassionate worship or eulogical singing basically means moving towards the state of being dispassionate. Even while being passionate, continuously thinking about the meaning of the word dispassionate is also one way of becoming dispassionate. There could have been two considerations behind the inclusion of the divine glory, miracles etc. in eulogical literature—brining the reality into light and arousing the interest of the common man in becoming dispassionate. The dispassionate persons possess excessive divine and yogic powers. All people are not aware of these excessive powers. The fantastic elements in the character of dispassionate persons are being pointed out so that people can have a clear understanding of them.
Why does man take his meals? He does it to satisfy his hunger. Whatever type of food it may be, hunger would be satisfied. Still, special efforts are made to make the food delicious. It is natural to be attracted by delicious food. Similarly, no matter in that manner the dispassionate person is eulogised it would become the ideal for the annihilation of karma. When divine incidents are added to it, it attracts the ordinary people, that work becomes more palatable.
Bares spiritualism is dull and drab. Very thoughtfully, material prosperity seems to have been discussed to make it more attractive. Truth, goodness and beauty (satyam, shivam, and sundaram) are the three fundamentals. Quest for truth is the goal of man. The good is beneficial. Linking the divine wealth with the dispassionateness can be as useful as the linking of beauty with truth and goodness.
Question: Bhagwan Mahavira created a revolution m his time by granting the right of equality to women. Is it not necessary to make the torch of that revolution burn brighter in the present conditions?
Answer: I am not in agreement with the talk about equal status or equal right. I am advocating the view that women should be given their own rights. They should be given their freedom. Bhagwan Mahavira had done exactly that. When there is talk of equality, a situation of conflict is likely to arise. Let both men and women realise their limitations and exercise their rights.
In the present age, claims are being made about the awakening among women. But I feel that roads of an all round awakening have not yet opened. For that, women would have to establish their identity. Let them be conscious about their existence. Let them not blindly follow the current trends. Let them understand their responsibilities and march ahead with a sense of discretion. Men would cooperate with them on their own. So far, there are a few women who are conscious about their existence. Fewer still are the women who are conscious about their responsibilities. So long as women themselves do not wake up, who would come to help them? Whatever is happening due to changes in the age, would keep on happening. If worthy activities are given preference after serious thought, women's power and their right can be made more meaningful.
Question: Srimad Jay acharya was a lustrous religious teacher in the Jain tradition. He had a very profound faith in the dispassionateness. Still in his Choubisi, he has expressed a sense of surrender at innumerable places. In the field of sadhana how could self-attainment and surrender be reconciled'?
Answer: Where is the contradiction between self-attainment and surrender? In Jainism, the fourfold protection of Arhant (Lord Jina), Siddha, Sadhu and Dharma are significant. What does the person who seeks refuge get out of it? There is no question of giving or taking anything. It is an expression of inner surrender and faith. There is no duality between the one who is worshipped and the one who worships. It is surrender before the one who is worshipped. It is no bargain. Sentences like' siddha siddhim mama disamtu' (0 Liberated Souls! bestow on me the liberation),'samahivaramuttimamdimtu' (Give me the highest and best blissfulness), etc. are recited like mantras. How does this practice come in the way of self-attainment? Self-attainment without surrender can give rise to pride. When one thinks that he is capable of doing everything why should he surrender, indicates egotism. The attainment related to it does not protect life, but misleads the individual.
Question: Even during the times when Jayacharya was enjoying great influence, the tradition of showing great respect to women from the point of view of the Sangh had been developed. Still one comes across in choubisi words like rakshasini (demoness), Vaitarani (mythological river of hell) embodiment of impure stench etc. used for description of women. What could have been Jayacharya's thinking behind the use of such words in the background of sadhana?
Answer: Such epithets for women in choubisi are the examples of symbolic style of writing. In my view, sexual desire has been expressed in the form of a woman.
The other reason may have been to create protecting armour for men. It is the weakness of the male to be attracted towards the female. The woman has been depicted in a terrifying and repugnant form so that man gets over this weakness and does not feel attracted towards the women.
The third reason could be the prevailing trend of his age. The use of such words or symbols may have been recognised in that age. If any poet in the present context resorts to the use of such terms, he can only invite controversy.
Question: Jayacharya has given prominence to glorification of virtues (gunas) in his Choubisi. Do you think he was directly influenced by the various traditions of worship prevalent during his times?
Answer: Singing in glorification of the virtues implies the feeling of joy. In the field of sadhana, the four feelings of friendship, joy, compassion and objectivity are very useful singing the glory of the virtuous people leads to the annihilation of karma (nirjara) when the feelings are very strong, the bondage of Karma of the gotra of the Tirthankara is also possible. Why should the influence of the prevailing traditions or ways of worship be rejected altogether? But it seems quite probably that Jayacharya was interested in this field. That form of glorification of the virtuous had been naturally accepted to him.
Question: "Reciting the name of the Lord to ward off obstacles"—this is the main idea behind Jayacharya's faith. Till the middle of the century, our religious order (Dharmasangh) has been wedded to this faith. I wish to know if in the history of the Dharmasangh we have got a compilation of the miraculous incidents that could ward off the divine wrath, diseases and other obstacles as a result of the recitation of the Choubisi.
Answer: Remembering one's favoured god in times of trouble brings redress from the trouble and strengthens will power. Jayacharya's testament o faith, 'Recite the name of the Lord to ward oil obstacles; has now become a matter of faith or millions of people. They are also finding protection through this faith. As far as the compilation of the incidents is concerned, they happen day after day. How many incidents could be compiled? Hundreds of them have been compiles. In this age of science many people are dismissing such incidents by calling them the product of blind faith. Let them do it. What difference does that make? Scientific research is done on physical objects. Science is even now silent about the matter of the spirit. Those who believe in the soul and the Supreme Being, those whose faith is strong, find themselves free from physical and mental afflictions by studying Choubisi. How can this experienced truth be rejected?
Question: Jayacharya's Choubisi has been written in the unsophisticated Rajasthani language, which is not easily understood by the common people. In the prevailing cultural and linguistic context, do you not feel that you should yourself ante the Choubisi in Hindi'
Answer: When the feeling is powerful, the language becomes a secondary consideration. Poetic or scholarly quality is not related to the language but to creativity.
In which language is Goswami Tulsidas's Ramayan written? Just think of the popularity it enjoys among the people. The use of language can be related to place and time. But in our Dharmasangh other languages are not as much in use as Rajasthani. I myself speak and write in Rajasthani.
Another thing—it is a practice in our Sangh that no new works should be written in the language and on the subjects in which the works of the acharyas are available. Jayacharya wrote Bhagwati's Lyrical Translation (Jod). In the 15thshatakaof Bhagwati, there is the description of Goshalaka. Acharya Bhikshu had already written a lecture on Goshalaka. Jayacharya skipped that whole shataka. Then at the insistence of the sadhus, he wrote only dohas on the 15th shataka. He did not write it in the lyrical form as in the other portions of the Jod.
Question: In the present age, the young generation, fascinated by various musical instruments and the tunes of film music, is sinking deep into the Western culture and the modern music. At such a time, how would Choubisi be able to protect its special quality and influence? Can its musical songs not be presented to the public by using the musical instruments as an accompaniment?
Answer: Everyone knows where the fascination for musical instruments and the film tunes are leading the young generation. The obscenity that has entered the film songs is a danger for cultural identity. The excellence of choubisi and its power to influence can never be in danger among the people, who are familiar with the good quality of its music and that work, as such.
As far as the use of mechanical instruments is concerned, these songs are so lovely in my view that they do not need the accompaniment of too many instruments. The use of an ordinary instrument may not be opposed to help the singer's voice.
Question: The monthly Jain Bharati was chosen to bring out a special number on Choubisi. The officials of the Mahasabha and the editor of the Jain Bharati are overjoyed on that account. We wish to know which particular aspect of Choubisi the Gurudev desires to present the people through this special number.
Answer: It is not my aim to bring into focus any particular aspect of Choubisi. I want it to be read in its totality and it’s every aspect to be well understood. The Jain Bharati is the monthly journal of our Dharmasangh. It has come to occupy a dignified position among the Jain magazines. I want it to attain greater heights. New avenues need to be explored for that purpose.
Question: Can the study of this small tract of choubisi help in concentrating on the problems of the present times? What is the spiritual content in this work, which can link the individual with the society and be of help in changing selfishness into beneficence?
Answer: There are innumerable things in the songs of Choubisi that could eliminate the individual, familial and social problems. Aspects of tolerance, equanimity, concentration, dedication, discretion, discriminative thinking, and control over the senses, transient nature of the world and the feeling of joy are worth mentioning among them. There is a great deal of discussion about meditation in these songs, which provides solution to the wide-ranging problems like tension, imbalance of mind, etc.
Question: That is the work by our Acharya, who was your predecessor. Are you giving it so much importance for that reason or is it is because of its excellence or for some other reason? It is said that Anandaghanaji's Choubisi is seeped in spiritualism. What is your view about that?
Answer: Jayacharya was my preceding Acharya. Choubisi has been written by him. For that reason, I have an attraction for it. But that is not the only reason. There are a number of other works written by Jayacharya. Each one of them is better than the other. Still those works have not been able to get for him as much popularity as Choubisi. In my view, its excellence lies very largely in its predominance of faith and devotion and the complete absorption resulting from its singing.
Anandaghanji was a spiritual person. It is true that there is the depth of spiritualism in his choubisi. But everyone cannot understand that profundity. Understanding his work is indeed a hard task. But I do not consider it an inferior work in any sense. Why should we compare these two works? Both are important in their own ways. The spontaneity and the easy flow in Jayacharya's Choubisi can impress on any emotional person.
Question: By relinquishing the seat of the acharya, you have started an ideal tradition in your lifetime. How do you feel, now that you are free from the responsibility of being the Acharya? What would be your programme?
Answer: I have started no new tradition by abandoning the seat of the Acharya in my lifetime. I have repeatedly said that it is an experiment of my own. Let it not be made a tradition. After giving up the post of the acharya, I am finding myself light at heart. Being (informal) controller I do keep an eye on every activity of the Dharmasangh. But I am absolutely free from the responsibility I used to shoulder formerly.
The fundamental inspiration for my programme is spiritual. I intend doing serious experiments in spiritualism and utilize my energy to make them widely known both spiritualism and sciences divorced from each other are incomplete. I would like to attempt to bring about harmony between them When ever any programme is undertaken with this ending view, it would receive my active contribution. What could be a better way to serve mankind?
I have a natural inclination for study and teaching. Creative Literature is also an activity to my liking. From this point of view, while keeping me engaged in educational and literary activities, I would also encourage sadhus and sadhvis to go in that direction.
Question: In view of the renunciation of the seat of the acharya by you, do you have any particular ideas about the post of the controller of the anuvrat programme?
Answer: Being the controller of anuvrat programme does not mean enjoying any post. No one has installed me in that position. Nor have I accepted that term of address from that point of view. It is only a designation. Formally I was called the 'pioneer' of the anuvrat movement. During these years, the term 'anushasta' of the anuvrat programme has become more current. That term means the one who gives the training. Giving training in anuvratis a part of my programmes. That is why I do not object when it is applied to me. If this is regarded as an official designation, then I can even think in terms of freeing myself from it.
Question: In your own time, you have changed the definition of the sect and presented religion in a new context. Impressed by your new ideas, even the people known as materialists have started having faith in religion. Are your followers that are the Terapanthi householders (sravakas) in agreement with your ideas? Do they feel proud to be the followers of a humanistic religion?
Answer: I do not link this thing with Terapanth or any other sect. Whether a person is a Terapanthi or not, if he is a thinker and enlightened person, he would not be able to disagree with my ideas. Where the windows of thinking are closed, where there is the insistence of tradition and only the aspect of worship is given importance in religion, the non-sectarian form of religion cannot find acceptance. Hence, in the case of those who are Terapanth is by birth but do not use the discretion and knowledge in their concept of religion, no definite opinion can be given.
In this context, my view is that by virtue of birth, a person may be following a particular religion but this gives no guarantee of his being a religious person. It is not in anyone's hands being born in a family following a particular religion. But the easily acquired sanskaras or the religious atmosphere in the family can make it easier for a person to be religious minded. As far as the humanistic religion is concerned, Terapanth in my view is indeed the humanistic religion. But the real difficulty is to say that everyone feels proud to belong to the humanistic religion. But they should certainly feel proud of it.
Question: During the time when you where the acharya the Terapanth Dharamsangh found a wide field to function as the humanistic religion. Would its power be utilised in future also for the promotion of moral values and the programmes for human welfare?
Answer: My name has been undoubtedly associated with the Anuvrat mission. The people belonging to the Terapanth have employed all their energy and worked hard to spread it all over the country. During these years, its voice has been heard at the international level as well. There is no question at all of not utilising social energy for that purpose in future as well.
Any society, whose enlightened class as also the young people are alert about their responsibilities would not find any of its tasks, kept in abeyance. I am feeling convinced that in the coming years, the horizon of the humanistic religion would further widen and the human race would benefit because of it.
Question: What would be the future of the anuvrat movement? What steps have you taken for the definite future of this mission and what new steps are you going to take?
Answer: I do not think that the future of the anuvrat movement would ever be dim. This is a programme that would go on even if no one carries it out. If man has to keep himself alive, the moral campaign like anuvrat would have to go on. Its name may be changed, its form may be changed, but its vital spirit cannot change. The literal meaning of anuvrat is small vows. Its implied meanings are humanistic religion, non-sectarian religion, human values or the minimal code of conduct for a healthy life. If there is no programme like anuvrat before us, not to speak of the good in the other world, life in the present state would become very complicated.
A new scheme to ensure the good of future of anuvrat has come up. It is the "anuvrat" family scheme. It is easy to carry the individual's faith in anuvrat to his whole family. This is a purposeful programme of carrying the anuvrat beliefs from generation to generation like the sanskaras of the family. If all members of the family would sit together and discuss about anuvrat and consider their membership of the anuvrat family and their good fortune, then there would be a silent revolution through this scheme.
A development council has been set up with a view to open new directions for the development of the Dharmasangh. It has seven units. One of the units deals with anuvrat, Prekshadhyan and the science of living. Through it the outline of the future plans would be prepared. The workers, who are interested in anuvrat, would be always prepared for the implementation of these plans.
Question: You have begun the anuvrat movement. Even this one programme is so broad based that it was possible to include in it education, sadhana, service and research. Why then did you start with the activities like prekshadhyan, science of living, etc? If this defused energy had been used only for the anuvrat movement, would it not have possibly yielded special results?
Answer: Anuvrat is a widespread programme and there are no two opinions about it. It is related to human beings as such. Restrictions on community, sect, country, colour and sex could never confine it within their limits. The activities aiming at human welfare can be carried out only by keeping anuvrat in the centre. From this point of view, it alone should have been given the primary importance, but in the light of expectations of the times, other activities also cannot be ignored. As far as prekshadhyan and science of living are concerned both are the supporters of anuvrat itself. Anuvrat is a human code of conduct. But the code of conduct cannot be assimilated merely by preaching it.
It is necessary to practice it in order to assimilate it. Prekshadhyan is one such process to experiment with, through which man could be cast into the mould of humanness. Anuvratis a model and prekshadhyan shapes man in accordance with it.
The first resolution of the seven-point sadhana of anuvratis T shall practice prekshadhyan, I shall do introspection.' From this point of view, anuvrat and prekshadhyan are mutually complementary. Unless anuvratis practiced in life, prekshadhyan cannot yield any meaningful result. Similarly unless the person following the path of anuvrat practices prekshadhyan, he can face difficulties in developing his will power. Prekshadhyan is a way to achieve mental concentration. The fickleness of mind weakens one’s will power. That is why I consider Prekshadhyan extremely important for the follower of anuvrat.
The science of living is not a programme distinct in any way from anuvrat and prekshadhyan. It is an experiment in the field of education. One great shortcoming of the Indian educational system is that much attention has not been given in it to human values, character or the art of living. Due to this, education has become one-sided. It does seem possible that anyone would be able to take an exclusive training in life values or character building after completing his education. Let them learn the art of living theoretically and practically. That alone is the science of living. I see the three of them as the confluence of the three rivers. Like the rivers Ganga, Yamuna and Saraswati, after taking a dip in anuvrat, prekshadhyan and science of living people learn the art of living a good life.
Training in non-violence is one of our programmes, which also is in conformity with the spirit of anuvrat. The first five rules of anuvrat are related with non-violence. For want of training, nonviolence becomes merely a subject for talking. That is why there is a programme of training in it to make non-violence practicable.
Question: You toured in Delhi almost for a whole year this time. Several constructive activities began during that period. Wonderful activities were started for the cleansing of democracy and changes in the educational system. Now you have announced your intention to go to Rajasthan. Is not your retiring to Rajasthan as good as leaving incomplete the activities started during the year? Would it not render futile all your efforts to carry on these activities throughout the year? Since you have already freed yourself from the position of the acharya, would it not be appropriate for you to stay on in the capital and carry forward these tasks?
Answer: I concentrated my attention on two things during my visit to Delhi this time-cleansing of democracy and changes in the educational system. In both these fields, work was done with a specific end in view. Its results too were evident. The setting up of the Anuvrat Parliamentary Forum to keep the programme of cleansing of democracy going, gives us some hope. As such, we do not have a magic wand so that the work would be accomplished with the snapping of the fingers. Beginning some work is one thing. But it does take time before the results become manifest.
In the field of education, there is not only curiosity about the science of living but there is even a kindling of faith in it. At the official as well as the individual level, educational officers have decided to train the teachers and teach the science of living in the manner that would fit in with the syllabus. From this point of view, a few teachers' camps were organised. There is now a greater possibility of carrying forward the programme.
The point about leaving the work incomplete certainly deserves to be considered. But does any work reach the stage of completion? Indian culture had innumerable great personalities like Rama Krishna, Mahavira, Buddha, Gandhi and many more All of them carried out their work in their particular ages. Did that work cease to be necessary at them? So long, as the world exists, people would keep on coming to do their work, they would fade out, but their work would go on. No great men have appeared so far who completed their work so that nothing more needed to be done. How than can we think of ourselves capable of completing the work we have started? Still, it is my intention to keep on working, whether I live in the capital of the country or in Rajasthan. In this matter, I am guided by Acharya Hemachandra who wrote.
"Lord! Even the yogis did not have the competence to sing your glory. Still, inspired by their attraction for your attributes, they sang your praises. I too have that attraction for your attributes. With that thought in my mind, I am singing your praises ignorant though I am. I shall not be committing a crime by doing that. [1]
Following the example of Hemachandra who was like an omniscient in this Kaliyuga, I believe that even our highly competent ancestors could not complete the work they started, why should I have the vainglorious attitude of carrying my work to the point of completion?
Question: Looking at the present situation in the country when ideals are vanishing, politics is becoming polluted, the spreading influence of the Western values is harming our culture, and economic disparities are increasing, what message would you wish to give? Would the areas of brightness continue to shrink?
Answer: It is the law of Nature that light follows darkness and darkness follows light. At times, there is darkness even in the midst of light. Dense fog and darkening clouds swallow light. Brightness in the midst of darkness is also not unknown. The miracles of electric bulbs and daylight lamps are for all to see. If we think from that point of view, the state of the world is not particularly good. Human values have become less a matter of prestige. Ideals have been set aside. What of politics, morality itself has become sullied. There is no pure morality either in administration or in the professions. Doubts are raised even about the morality of religious people. The culture of this country is gradually getting its vitality sapped. The greatest reason for it is the unstable educational policy. The education being provided following the Western pattern is disregarding the needs of the country. The aim of education seems to be not improving the quality of life but raising the economic standards. There are only goals left before man—wealth and power. Everything is considered justified to attain these two goals. Under these conditions, we can see nothing that could save us.
We know that there would be great upheavals in the world. The world would be in the state of deluge though that time is still very distant. But looking at the conditions man has created, that time seems to be drawing nearer. It would be such a terrible time that the very thought of it gives us shudders. In such a situation, my only message is that if man wishes to live happily and in peace, let him change his lifestyle. A lifestyle based on anuvrat can save him from the calamity. That is the greatest need of the hour. The declaration of the 'Year of Tolerance' by the United Nations is the declaration to give priority to human values.
The Hindi fortnightly Anuvrat has also played an important role in spreading our anuvrat mission and making it effective. Through this journal, the debate about human values is reaching up to the common people. We seem to be facing a famine-like situation even with regard to talking good sense and taking it to the people. The media are not committed to their responsibility in the true sense. If they are truly committed, then our work becomes quite easy. Without getting into the controversy about what the newspapers, Akashwani, Doordarshan give to their readers and viewers, the Anuvratis doing fairly good work within its limitation. If any work is being done in any part of the world to reinstate the human values and its light reaches the common people, then the shrinking areas of brightness can be broadened.
